To: jvncnet!usa.net!bskeet@dowv
Cc: Rex Ballard , online-news@marketplace.com
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On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 jvncnet!usa.net!bskeet@dowv wrote:

> >> >Greg Stephan: wrote *******CORRECTION******---Bill Skeet wrote:
> written by Bill Skeet.  I don't know Greg Stephan, and he certainly should
> not be held responsible for my statements. --Bill
Thank you for the correction. 

> >Do you really want absolute control of the fonts?  Are you willing to
> >commit to providing the fonts for every possible platform that supports
> >html?  Remember the internet consists of 25 Million hosts.  Only about 60%
> >are Windows 3.1 hosts.  What about Macs? What about PCs runing Linux?, BSD?,
> >SCO?, Solaris?

> I think the point I made was that 1) yes, I want control of the
> fonts/typography because it is important for product identity and
> legibility of the document, and 2) I don't need to provide the fonts to
> users; current technology allows fonts to be embedded in a PDF
> document--independent of the users' fonts and regardless of PC or MAC
> hardware. Now, Unix? I don't think there is a Acrobat Reader available for
> Unix machines. But then again, Macs and PCs account for the majority of the
> *personal* computers.

Here's the point.  The internet consists of over 25 million hosts, many of
which provide fire-wall protection.  In some cases, the LAN side of the
firewall has X-terminal access to specific clients.  Those servers are
Unix based (or some variant of Unix), usually Sun, Linux, AIX, or SCO.
 
> >Again, is ADOBE promising that every Mosaic Client machine will be a valid
> >recipient?  Including linux, sco, bsd, solaris, NT, OS/2 - all versions,
> >all platforms, all hardware, all configurations.
 
> Is there *anything* that covers all platforms, all hardware, all configurations?
> I think this is a little unreasonable.
Actually, that is what Open Systems and General Public License is all
about.  I may not get the glitzy Motif product but I can get a fully
functional Athena or OpenLook flavor that provides all the functionality. 
The WAIS server, MOSAIC, and most X11R5 and X11R6 applications can be
ported to most (80%) of the currently used platforms (including some
antiques).
 
> I can't speak for Adobe.  But Acrobat runs on both Macs and PCs, right now.
> That covers most of the Mosaic client machines.

Mosaic is supported by many platforms.  I access it via my Xterminal
software and run the client on a Sun or HP.  The workstation is windows,
but the firewall is someone elses (Sun, HP, AIX, Ultrix,...).
 
> >TCP/IP isn't the greatest protocol in the world.  There have been several
> >attempts to propose new, improved protocols.  The problem is that there
> >are 25 million machines and about 2 million possible combinations to
> >support.  On the internet, GNU  and copylefted software in source code
> >format is the final definition of the standard.  You may have downloaded a
> >binary version of Mosaic, but the source code is also available.
> >
> >The market of the internet is different.  You aren't dealing with
> >teenagers dialing in for 30 minutes for a single session dialogue.  You
> >are dealing with Servers connected 24/7 and providing fire-wall services.
> >Corporations often deal in lots of 1000-3000 nodes.  It becomes much
> >cheaper to hire a contracter to upload GNU upgrades once/month than to
> >have to buy and install commercial software 10 times/year.
> 
> I'm not sure what this stuff has to do with my points that Mosaic is a good
> delivery mechanism for the public and Acrobat, a good presentation tool.
> I'm interested to learn more...

Mosaic is a good delivery mechanism because it is widely available on a
variety of platforms.  Commercial vendors bundle service, configuration,
installation, and user support, for which people are willing to pay
anywhere from $20-$50/copy.  The core product is freely available in source
code form, as are most of the Mosaic Subclients.  Read the GNU manefesto.

Again, this has more to do with the internet culture than with any formal
definition.  Commercial vendors have been trying to compete with the
"Copyleft" products since DEC came out with VMS trying to keep VAX
purchasers from installing Unix (version 6) on their machines.

Yes, Adobe acrobat is a good reader, so is ghostscript (a postscript
viewer), or dps (display postscript viewer).  Adobe should concentrate on
promoting the compatibility.  If Adobe really feels that PDF is that much
better, then they should encourage "copyleft" implementations.

The hobbyists, techies, and administrators of 100+ node LANs will use the
copyleft implementation.  The average user would use the Adobe reader and
server.

In many corporations, special purpose software requires procurement
procedures that can cost several times the royalties of the software.
I may be able to get a dozen people to use a copyleft version of acrobat
that I downloaded and compiled (yes I need source, so that I can be
certain there are no viruses or killer bugs), within a very short time,
there will be 30 people willing to pay for a site license on an easier to
use flavor with vendor supplied technical support.

How do you think Mosaic became popular?
 
> >If you start sending 25 2 megabyte PDF files because you think I want to
> >see pictures of your town mayor, I'll pull the plug on that feed.
 
> Well, the connection to Mosaic isn't really a feed.  It allows the user to
> browse a page and click on things that look interesting--allowing the user
> to pick and choose which documents he or she would like to view.  And,
> while file size is a concern, the PDF files I've created (some with more
> than 50 pages) have never run over 500K.  Again, this model emphasizes user
> freedom; If the document was, say, a newspaper, then the user might have
> the choice of which sections were interesting, and, after selecting those
> sections, could be charged for those documents.

20 or 30 users pulling down articles containing 500K of "font information"
can saturate 56K or even T1 if it has to be done for each posting.  I can
block the IP address of your server at my site with a router filter.  At
dial-up speeds, I'm going to spend 5 minutes (fonts don't compress well)
getting your fonts before I can even see what you are offering.  I'm sure
the POP admins will love having me browse your newspaper (racking up huge
packet rate charges).  You get may be charged a flat rate, but that rate
is determined by the number of bits going down the wire over a given day.
Internet access prices could skyrocket if we suck up bandwidth with
custom fonts for each article/story.

There are some good ways to manage this, such as allowing me to download
your presentation style (once) and link it to SGML objects.  Now you can
have your custom presentation, I can use my choice of readers, and the
bandwidth is back down to about 2% presentation overhead.
 
> Bill

	Rex Ballard
	(personal posting)




From jvncnet!marketplace.com!owner-online-news Mon Oct 24 16:31:03 1994