To: Paul M Clements 
Cc: colonel@azstarnet.com
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---Paul M Clements  wrote:
>
> Sounds like Big Sister is raising her Communistic little head. 
> Disarmament is one of their chief goals, has been for decades.  Now,
with
> domestic violence rules and this....
> 
> Hail to the chief is getting to sound more like "HEIL" TO THE CHIEF!
> 
> Paul Clements
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Art Books
>  writes:
> >

Any bets about how long our fatherless, adulterer, amoral, lying
Kommander in Chief will be around?

Getting rid of him is the second most important step towards restoring
responsible fatherhood--right after ending affirmative action.

Sincerely,

John Knight

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---"Col. Harry S. Bachstein"  wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Mark Driver  >> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 4:31 PM
> >> Subject: Fwd: Denver (long)
> >> 
> >> The following was initially posted to the IDPA list by Michael
Bane,
> >> MBaneACP@aol.com, who attended the Denver City Council meeting last
> >night.
> >> I obtained permission from Michael to forward it along.
> >> 
> >> Mark
> >> -----------------
> >> Hi Folks:
> >> 
> >> I'm cross-posting this message to several lists and this is long,
> >but bear
> >> with me.
> >> 
> >> Last night, the Denver City Council voted to make the "public 
> >nuisance
> >> abatement" ordinance permanent, despite 100s of gun owners and
other
> >> critics of the ordinance (including the ACLU) who filled the
Chamber
> >> Council and nearby rooms to overflowing.
> >> 
> >> To borrow a phrase from the Grateful Dead, "it's even worse than it
> >appears."
> >> 
> >> Briefly, for gunowners, what this means is that if you're caught in
> >Denver
> >> for any reason (say, a minor traffic stop, an accident, a
roadblock, 
> >a
> >> seat-belt check, drunk driving enforcement stops, etc.) and there
is
> >a gun
> >> in your car, your car WILL be confiscated, your weapons WILL be
> >confiscated
> >> and you WILL go directly to jail.
> >> 
> >> According to the Denver PD, hunters, target shooters on the way to
> >and from
> >> the range, buyers and sellers of firearms and people "whose lives 
> >are
> >> directly threatened" will be able to make an "affrimative defense,"
> >that
> >> is, tell the police that you're legit, and MAYBE they'll let you
> >> go.However,  Assistant Denver City Attorney Keith Steigelmeyer
> >expressed
> >> repeatedly his plan to "push" the affirmative defense arguments "up
> >the
> >> line," that is, you still get the affirmative defense--in court. In
> >the
> >> meantime, your car and everything in it is confiscated; your
weapons
> >are
> >> confiscated; you're booked, processed and have to make bail and the
> >city
> >> charges you a towing fee of $80 and an $8 a day storage fee.
> >> 
> >> The average "storage time" right now for vehicles WHERE THE DRIVER 
> >WAS
> >> FOUND "NON-CULPABLE" (newspeak for "totally innocent") is 30 days.
> >> 
> >> Your guns? According to the Denver PD officer directly in charge of
> >> administering the program, "IT IS THE POLICY OF THE CITY OF DENVER
> >TO NEVER
> >> RETURN WEAPONS THAT HAVE BEEN SEIZED FOR CAUSE." You may get your
> >car back,
> >> but you're going to have to go to court to get your guns back--even
> >if you
> >> are TOTALLY innocent.
> >> 
> >> And you may not get the car -- if your car is leased, or has a loan
> >or lien
> >> on it, Denver informs your leasor or lienholder. The small print in
> >your
> >> loan or lease allows the car to be repossessed IMMEDIATELY if it is
> >seized
> >> by a governmental agency. According to the Denver PD, this is what 
> >is
> >> actually happening.
> >> 
> >> Again, all this happens BEFORE your guilt or innocence is 
> >established.
> >> 
> >> Assistant City Attorney Steigelmeyer insists that hunters and
> >shooters in
> >> "complete compliance" with Denver ordinances have nothing to fear.
> >However,
> >> Denver ordinances are complex (the city has its own "assault
weapon"
> >and
> >> lookalike ban, for example), vague and apparently designed to trip
> >up the
> >> unwary. The ordinances provide that any weapon in a car either be
> >unloaded
> >> and locked in the trunk or somewhere "out of the passenger
> >compartment." If
> >> the weapon is in the passenger compartment, it must be TOTALLY
> >UNCONCEALED,
> >> unloaded and "incapacitated" (which, apperently, means a trigger
> >lock). If
> >> the gun is not totally visible, it is CONCEALED, and you will be
> >treated
> >> accordingly. BTW, if the gun is totally visible, it is "probable
> >cause" for
> >> you to be stopped by the Denver police.
> >> 
> >> According to the lawyer I spoke with, even a valid, statewide CCW
is
> >only
> >> considered "affirmative defense." At the discression of the officer
> >on the
> >> scene, you may be arrested, your car and your legal gun
confiscated,
> >even
> >> if you have a valid CCW. Again, according to what was stated at
last
> >> night's council meeting, your gun will not be returned to you.
> >> 
> >> THE BOTTOM LINE: If you travel with guns in Denver, YOU ARE AT
RISK.
> >The
> >> vehicle provisions of the "nuisance abatement act" are apparently
> >> SPECIFICALLY TARGETED AT LEGAL GUN OWNERS. The ordinance HAS BEEN 
> >USED
> >> AGAINST LEGAL GUNOWNERS ALREADY, and, now that it's permanent, the
> >Denver
> >> PD has already said they will be stepping up enforcement.
> >> 
> >> My personal advice is avoid DENVER. Do not book hunts in Colorado;
> >do not
> >> attend matches that require to to fly into DIA or travel through
> >Denver and
> >> SKI IN UTAH.
> >> 
> >> **********************************************
> >> 
> >> COL. HARRY S. BACHSTEIN
> >> http://members.aol.com/bach11/adventurer.htm
> >> "Man is not my Ultimate Judge."
> >> **************************************************/
> >> NEW! The Colonel has joined STEELHORSE MAGAZINE    / 
> >> http://www.steelhorsemag.com                                     
  
> >          /
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >
> >Dear Colonel,
> >
> >Why can we not require that the city of Denver be required to conduct
> >a cost/benefit analysis which adds up all the costs of implementing
> >this law (enforcement officers, incarceration costs, lost income,
lost
> >guns, lost vehicles, increased litigation costs, etc.) and divides
> >this by the  anticipated number of lives saved.
> >
> >In other words, if this law does NOT reduce gun fatalities, the
> >cost/benefit is infinite.
> >
> >Most likely this will be the case.

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Subject: Re: 'What, Me Worry' about real estate classified online From: Art Books  Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT)
How the Web Was Won
Subject: Re: 'What, Me Worry' about real estate classified online
From: Art Books 
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT)

In-Reply-To:  from Steve Outing at "Jul 17, 98 10:52:42 am"
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