To: "Col. Harry S. Bachstein" 
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---"Col. Harry S. Bachstein"  wrote:
>
> From: Mark Driver  Date: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 4:31 PM
> Subject: Fwd: Denver (long)
> 
> The following was initially posted to the IDPA list by Michael Bane,
> MBaneACP@aol.com, who attended the Denver City Council meeting last
night.
> I obtained permission from Michael to forward it along.
> 
> Mark
> -----------------
> Hi Folks:
> 
> I'm cross-posting this message to several lists and this is long,
but bear
> with me.
> 
> Last night, the Denver City Council voted to make the "public nuisance
> abatement" ordinance permanent, despite 100s of gun owners and other
> critics of the ordinance (including the ACLU) who filled the Chamber
> Council and nearby rooms to overflowing.
> 
> To borrow a phrase from the Grateful Dead, "it's even worse than it
appears."
> 
> Briefly, for gunowners, what this means is that if you're caught in
Denver
> for any reason (say, a minor traffic stop, an accident, a roadblock, a
> seat-belt check, drunk driving enforcement stops, etc.) and there is
a gun
> in your car, your car WILL be confiscated, your weapons WILL be
confiscated
> and you WILL go directly to jail.
> 
> According to the Denver PD, hunters, target shooters on the way to
and from
> the range, buyers and sellers of firearms and people "whose lives are
> directly threatened" will be able to make an "affrimative defense,"
that
> is, tell the police that you're legit, and MAYBE they'll let you
> go.However,  Assistant Denver City Attorney Keith Steigelmeyer
expressed
> repeatedly his plan to "push" the affirmative defense arguments "up
the
> line," that is, you still get the affirmative defense--in court. In
the
> meantime, your car and everything in it is confiscated; your weapons
are
> confiscated; you're booked, processed and have to make bail and the
city
> charges you a towing fee of $80 and an $8 a day storage fee.
> 
> The average "storage time" right now for vehicles WHERE THE DRIVER WAS
> FOUND "NON-CULPABLE" (newspeak for "totally innocent") is 30 days.
> 
> Your guns? According to the Denver PD officer directly in charge of
> administering the program, "IT IS THE POLICY OF THE CITY OF DENVER
TO NEVER
> RETURN WEAPONS THAT HAVE BEEN SEIZED FOR CAUSE." You may get your
car back,
> but you're going to have to go to court to get your guns back--even
if you
> are TOTALLY innocent.
> 
> And you may not get the car -- if your car is leased, or has a loan
or lien
> on it, Denver informs your leasor or lienholder. The small print in
your
> loan or lease allows the car to be repossessed IMMEDIATELY if it is
seized
> by a governmental agency. According to the Denver PD, this is what is
> actually happening.
> 
> Again, all this happens BEFORE your guilt or innocence is established.
> 
> Assistant City Attorney Steigelmeyer insists that hunters and
shooters in
> "complete compliance" with Denver ordinances have nothing to fear.
However,
> Denver ordinances are complex (the city has its own "assault weapon"
and
> lookalike ban, for example), vague and apparently designed to trip
up the
> unwary. The ordinances provide that any weapon in a car either be
unloaded
> and locked in the trunk or somewhere "out of the passenger
compartment." If
> the weapon is in the passenger compartment, it must be TOTALLY
UNCONCEALED,
> unloaded and "incapacitated" (which, apperently, means a trigger
lock). If
> the gun is not totally visible, it is CONCEALED, and you will be
treated
> accordingly. BTW, if the gun is totally visible, it is "probable
cause" for
> you to be stopped by the Denver police.
> 
> According to the lawyer I spoke with, even a valid, statewide CCW is
only
> considered "affirmative defense." At the discression of the officer
on the
> scene, you may be arrested, your car and your legal gun confiscated,
even
> if you have a valid CCW. Again, according to what was stated at last
> night's council meeting, your gun will not be returned to you.
> 
> THE BOTTOM LINE: If you travel with guns in Denver, YOU ARE AT RISK.
The
> vehicle provisions of the "nuisance abatement act" are apparently
> SPECIFICALLY TARGETED AT LEGAL GUN OWNERS. The ordinance HAS BEEN USED
> AGAINST LEGAL GUNOWNERS ALREADY, and, now that it's permanent, the
Denver
> PD has already said they will be stepping up enforcement.
> 
> My personal advice is avoid DENVER. Do not book hunts in Colorado;
do not
> attend matches that require to to fly into DIA or travel through
Denver and
> SKI IN UTAH.
> 
> **********************************************
> 
> COL. HARRY S. BACHSTEIN
> http://members.aol.com/bach11/adventurer.htm
> "Man is not my Ultimate Judge."
> **************************************************/
> NEW! The Colonel has joined STEELHORSE MAGAZINE    / 
> http://www.steelhorsemag.com                                        
          /
> 
> 
> 

Dear Colonel,

Why can we not require that the city of Denver be required to conduct
a cost/benefit analysis which adds up all the costs of implementing
this law (enforcement officers, incarceration costs, lost income, lost
guns, lost vehicles, increased litigation costs, etc.) and divides
this by the  anticipated number of lives saved.

In other words, if this law does NOT reduce gun fatalities, the
cost/benefit is infinite.

Most likely this will be the case.

Sincerely,

John Knight




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