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On 29 Dec 1995, Carol2180 wrote:

> In article , Rex
> Ballard  writes:
> 
> > If Werner Erhard applied for the 
> >position of Forum Leader today, the man Werner Erhard was in 1976 
> >wouldn't even qualify for the entry level leadership program.

My point is that Werner Erhart, as described in 1980, would not meet the 
current requirements for the IFLP, let alone Forum Leader.  I had to make 
sure that my child support was up to date, my bills paid, and my car 
properly registered, before I could even Apply.

> Don't kid yourself, Erhard is still running the show.

Actually, I thought his brother, Harry Rosenberg was running the show :-)
(Harry is the CEO of Landmark).  Werner Erhard is in self-imposed exile.  
He is appearantly afraid the Scientologists will "get him".  Since I 
haven't heard any scientologists declaring a public policy to "get 
Erhard", I have no position one way or the other.

> You have an interesting *interpretation* of those articles -- I recommend
> that people who are interested get the packet and read it themselves.  Of
> all those articles you chose a couple to say that AFF now is a
> fundamentalist Christian organization opposed to cults on a theological
> basis?  You've got to be kidding.

The articles, were arranged in a particular order (Not cronological) and 
lead to a particular point.  I agree with your reccomendation, people 
should get the packet and read it for themselves.  The focal point of the 
packet was "The Serpentine Quality of EST", the FIRST of Garvey's many 
"unbiased" articles about the subject - the LAST of the series in the 
Packet.

When I registered for the Forum, my father was very concerned.  His 
secretary did EST and committed suicide.  Of course, 5% of the people who 
go to Narcotics Anonymous commit suicide (overdoses) within 5 years too.

> Your theory on the hypnosis bit is not an educated one.  Have you read
> anything about Ericksonian hypnosis?  Do you know anything about hypnosis
> done without formal trance induction?  What do you think an eyes-closed
> *process* is? 

I know several different forms of hypnosis, meditation, psycho-neurology, 
and subliminal technology.  Ever studied the psycho-neurology of 
television?  Which is worse, having your self-esteem ripped to shreds in 
order to sell you tooth-paste and deodorants during a strobe and 
ultrasonics induced trance, or having some guy guide you through an 
visualization exercise that will give you freedom from fear of other 
people.

> I was also involved in the days of est...and I also did The
> Forum.  I have made the opporunity to research hypnosis and it's an
> eye-opener! I invite you to do the same.  

I have studied a variety of different technologies, including religeons, 
meditation techniques, Alcholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Alanon,
and a variety of therapies.  I've also done Dale Carnagie, and listened 
to the NLP tapes, listened to the Nightengale-Conant tapes, and learned a 
variety of other "Success Ethic" technologies.

The Forum, and subsequent Landmark Courses aren't particularly 
revolutionary in their subject matter.  Most of the material is available 
in good books or tapes.  What makes the Forum and Landmark courses 
different is that you quickly get into action on the insights you get.

Most people know how to lose weight (Eat less, excercise more), but how 
many people want to lose a few pounds.  The Forum will take a simple 
principle, like integrety, and create a whole excercise around it (making 
a series of promises and keeping them for 3 days).  The purpose of the 
excercise is to see what gets between your promises and fulfilling those 
promises.  Many people have breakthroughs by being late!

> I also invite you to read the
> book "Cults In Our Midst" by Dr. Margaret Thaler Singer with Janja Lalich
> (Jossey-Bass, 1995) -- there's a section on Landmark in there and Dr.
> Singer does not call Landmark a cult.

I beleive there have been several examinations of Landmark and 
comparisons to cult behavior.  Most of the liturature I have read points 
to the structures put in place to make sure that landmark is not a cult.
The leadership of Landmark is very consious the the potential for abuse, 
and the potential for individuals to abuse the technology.

> Will you read that book and say she
> also has a Christian fundamentalist viewpoint?

If the conclusion of the book was that any organization that suggested 
that any insight that was inconsistant with Judeo-Christian values was a 
"Cult" and brainwashing and therefore evil - Yes.

> Or do you just use that as
> an excuse to dismiss valuable information like I did way back when?

Actually, I reviewed the information very carefully.  There are some 
issues, such as the side-effects of the "Fear Exercise" that intrigued 
me.  I probably would not have done EST (they probably wouldn't have let 
me).  I had been invited to an EST guest seminar, and several of the 
people who had the greatest impact on my life were EST graduates.  By the 
time I was invited to register for the Forum, I figured it was going to be
a "Crash course in 12 step technology".  I understood the principles of 
"Transformation", and figured it couldn't hurt.

Perhaps the best thing about Landmark (for me) is that I can spend time 
with people who have engaged in taking responsiblity for their lives, 
have taken on serving others, and are committed to something more than
their appearances or their televisions.

I used to joke.  "Sure, the Forum is brainwashing, but I needed some of 
my thinking cleaned up anyway."  I've been active in Landmark for 4 years 
now, and have gained personal benefit.  I have also seen about 50,000 
people get personal benefit for themselves.  I have seen about 2000 of 
them take on projects, in their communities, their cultures, and their 
relationships, that have altered the quality of life for millions of 
people.

Personally, I have been "hit on" for the Hunger Project twice.  Once I 
was invited to a "Bowl-a-thon", and once I was invited to a fancy party.
I went to the party, I didn't go bowling.

I have also seen a couple take on opening Eye Banks in third world 
countries (Over 50 at last count).  I have seen people help get sheepskin 
condoms off the market (sheepskin passes the AIDS virus).  I have met 
people who spoke to both Rabin and Arafat about the possibility of Peace 
in the Middle East.

I have watched people save their marriages, reunite with parents they 
have resented for 20 years, and assume responsiblity for their estranged 
children.  I have seen couples get married after 5 years of "living 
together", and I have watched people take on revitalizing inner city 
communities.

Werner Erhard isn't "A God" in Landmark.  If someone asks about him, the 
leaders will provide a brief update (he's in Russia, creating 
conversations for the possibility of free enterprise)... It's more of a 
"curious moment".

> 
	Rex Ballard - Director of Electronic Distribution
	Standard & Poor's/McGraw-Hill
	Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect
	the Management of the McGraw-Hill Companies.
	http://cnj.digex.net/~rballard




From rballard@cnj.digex.net Fri Jan  5 01:36:42 1996