Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:36:29 +0001 (MDT)
To: Jeremy Allaire
Cc: online-news@marketplace.com
In-Reply-To:
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-online-news@marketplace.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO
X-Status:
Jeremy,
> From: Jeremy Allaire
> To: David Levine
> Cc: online-news@marketplace.com
> Subject: Re: Web Interactivity
>
> The problem is about developing basic applications
> using existing Web technology, most of which have
> been extremely underutilized because of the UNIX
> centric nature of Web development (until recently,
> at least).
!!
It could be argued that without Unix,
there would be no Web, Jeremy. And, no
Internet. And, no client-server.
Being Unix-centric is what made the Web
bloom - free tools, thousands of people
contributing things on their own time,
etc.
Let's not forget from whenst we come.
Unix "enabled" all this becuase the Unix
environment is open.
> For the
> most part, use of such things has been (1)
> cost prohibitive, (2) difficult given the current
> state of server-side development tools, and (3)
> mostly on UNIX -- which, of course, contributes
> to both (1) and (2).
Unix is no more expensive than DOS/Windows,
Jeremy. In fact, Linux is free, or available
on CD-ROM for $39 with a complete development
environment - including the best compiler suite
in the world from the Free Software Foundation.
I know of several free server-side database
interface tools. There are literally thousands
of Common Gateway Interface programs and
scripts available in the public domain (free).
Perl, the language of choice for much work at
Web sites was written first to operate under
Unix - perhaps the first language ever to unify
systems programming and application scripting.
From "point zero" of the WWW, let's say November
1993 through today, we've seen astonishing grow
in the number of tools and applications available
for the Web. I could argue that even the "PC
revolution" was slower at getting started than
the Web.
Again, I claim Unix is to be "thanked" not
"blamed" for this growth.
> The response from several list members has been
> to either (1) shout Java, or (2) propose even
> loftier and more distant technologies such
> as Sun's DCE, or more generally the Standards
> based CORBA.
Programmers are always groping for new
languages, new "general solutions" just
as physicists are searching for the
Grand Unifying Theory.
I personally still program in C (an ancient
language), and I'm getting a lot of good work
done. Maybe that's because I was brought up
on Unix and understand both the operating system
and the Internet protocol suite - both of which
are admirable documented in writing and in
example source code. Quite contrary to
lacking tools, I have TOO MANY tools to choose
from - even if I only look at C (for Perl, it
is over the top).
I agree that it is too early to praise or
condemn Java. Unlike its cousin Tcl/Tk, Java
is not "open" or "multi-vendor". Tcl/Tk, you
may be aware, is another in a long tradition
of free software - given away to the community
early and therein developed into a world-class
open programming environment. On Unix, Jeremy.
> First, as Web publishers, we must be asking
> what we can do to enhance and develop our
> technologies to be more dynamic (literally,
> no static pages) and user-driven -- more
> interactive, not necessarily in the user-to-user
> framework (though this is a big part of the issue).
Well, first of all, you're coming a little
late to the party. The world has embraced the
WWW, instead of say WAIS or Hyper-G or others,
and the WWW could be seen as "server-centric".
The server-centricity of the WWW makes it
easy to "distribute" applications power, but
not to "decentralize" it - I think that is
what you are asking for user-to-user.
But, guess what? Because we have the WWW
built atop the Internet Protocol Suite, there
is NOTHING to stop you from developing applications
(perhaps spawned by - oops, a Unix term - your
Web viewer) that do not use the Web at all -
only the same underlying protocols (TCP/IP, e.g.).
It's an open world out there, Jeremy, and there
are tons of tools and literative available to
get you started.
> We also need to be asking how we can do this NOW,
> how we can leverage existing software talent as
> opposed to development languages and distributed
> technologies that are barely tested and hardly
> accessible to the vast majority of Web developers.
>
> We need to be able to tap into the massive technical
> knowledge created by the desktop PC revolution --
> namely, database and visual programming on PCs, mostly
> in the relational database world, but also in the
> emerging convergence of relational databases and
> distributed applications -- e.g. client/server computing.
Ah, now I see why you're thinking is clouded
about the WWW and Unix - you have your experience
in the PC world.
Well, all I can say is welcome to the new world
order. The Internet is based upon open software
development - two FREE hardware-independent reference
implementations MUST be available for all IP standard
protocols - and this work was all done on Unix.
Further, in computer science departments around
the world, most software development that does not
focus on developing new operating systems gets
done on Unix.
Used to be Unix was available only on larger machines.
Not anymore. Unix is free on the PC, along with the
best development tools. Oops, I forgot that you're used
to those "GUI tools" for software development such
as on Mac and PC. True, these are for-cost in the
Unix world (same as in the PC world) and they are
less capable (in my opinion). Why? Because they
give you FREEDOM - Unix programming tools do not
restrict your ability to create the new and wild
applications you want. The tools in other environments
do - either by locking you into one programming
model (Mac) or locking you into a narrow operating system
and class system (PC). Just as you can not have
simultaneously dictator and democracy, you can not
have programming rigidity and programming freedom.
> We need to use affordable and easy-to-use tools that
> are scalable,
You make this point well -- DOS/Windows and the
Mac DO NOT SCALE. Only Unix scales. So,
here's your clue to move to Unix!
> that can integrate the massive pool of
> existing database development talent, and that allow
> for the rapid development of interactive applications --
> and crucially, which don't assume some significant
> and myopic leap in the technology available to the
> average PC user.
Database technology is very independent of the
Web. The Web is only one interface to a database.
Thus, I dont think we need to leverage database
technology -- we need to leverage all those programmers
you gave us the Web! (By the way, these are not
Dos/Windows programmers -- they are Unix programmers).
> There is enormous potential to develop the Web into
> a significant force in client/server distributed
> database applications -- existing standards provide
> enough of a shell to do such a thing.
And those standards were developed on, and are
supported in ... Unix.
> There is no
> compelling reason (at least as far as I've seen --
> someone speak up if they can come up with one) to
> pitch one's dreams in technologies which DONT EVEN
> RUN on _ANY_ desktop computer systems today
oops. A baby Sun machine is cheaper than a
Pentium PC, Jeremy. Also, can you blame Sun
for developing on it's OS first? There is
a reason James Gosling is working at Sun and
not at Microsoft, Jeremy - freedom to create
new things.
> (e.g.
> HotJava -- runs on Sun, WindowsNT and is in Alpha
> stage, has NO development tools, NO support, and
> NO testing on the OS's that sit on 95% of the world's
> computers).
the 95% of the machines you mention are not
the machines that "serve" the world - they
are the client machines. Of the other 5%,
a "good number" run Unix. We can start a
real revolution if we can get the other
95% to run Linux!
Further, I wager you'll see a Linux port of
Java before you can blink.
> (though, if folks read last weeks Info-World --
> http://www.infoworld.com -- they might learn some
> interesting and frightening things about Java's
> history).
Sorry I did not read this. What did you
find "frightening"?
> Where does this lead? I think it is somewhat clear
> that we need systems that allow small to large
> publishers created database applications using
> existing Windows talent on significantly less
> expensive hardware and on significantly less
> expensive software -- and, incidentally,
> much easier to use systems.
I agree completely that what will drive
new exciting Web applications is NOT the
big expensive hardware. The REALLY wonderful
stuff will come out of new young companies
and from independent individuals -- ALL of
whom can afford Linux machine with development
tools. Its under $6k. Is that cheap enough?
I think you will have a long wait to see
"Windows talent" doing Web applications.
Windows is "corporate", and corporate is not
the way to create exciting new apps.
+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- +
| Dave Oliver | Newshare Corp. Managing Dir. Technology | dave@newshare.com |
+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- +
From owner-online-news@marketplace.com Wed Jul 5 10:52:01 1995
Received: from marketplace.com (majordom@marketplace.com [199.45.128.10]) by cnj.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA18119 ; for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:51:58 -0400
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by marketplace.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA27632 for online-news-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 04:52:29 -0600
Received: from access1.digex.net (qldGeBM8r5JwA@access1.digex.net [205.197.245.192]) by marketplace.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA27625 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 04:52:21 -0600
Received: (from fins@localhost) by access1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA01380 ; for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 06:49:43 -0400