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On 4 Nov 1994, Kelvin W. Fedrick wrote:
> In article <39c98j$t5b@newsbf01.news.aol.com>,
> Purity 1  wrote:
> > Ramming my opinon down someones throat and protecting the rights of
> >innocent children are two totally different things.
> You aren't protecting the rights of children by reporting parents who spank
> their children since in Colorado and probably every other state there are
> explicit exemptions in statutary law to allow for parents to use physical

I am originally from Colorado, I found it very interesting that in Adams 
County (A county composed of mostly white unwed mothers (single, 
divorced, never married...) a woman could lose her infant child for 
simply putting his car seat on the floor in a public place.  In Aurora, 
(Mostly black women, drug addicts, and prostitutes), a woman could bring 
her 6 year old in with welts from the electrical cord and nothing was even said.

> force (can you say spanking) when it is in keeping with accepted child rearing
> practices. You are claiming to be protecting rights which don't exist, period.

Discresionary enforcement is a common form of econimic discrimination.  
When my Ex-wife checked herself into a psych ward because she was about 
to "kill the kids", she was reported to social services.  When I was 
interviewed and confirmed that I had intervened on several occaisions to 
stop physical abuse of our children, this too was reported to social 
services.  When I went to a lawyer, I was told that I needed to pay a 
social worker an "investigation fee" (IE: Bribe), of at least $10,000 if 
I wanted to win custody of the kids.  I know of no state which accepts 
"pro-forma" petitions for custody and custody battles can cost anywhere 
from $30,000 to $120,000 depending on how much the lawyers think they can 
collect.  I was lucky enough to get a lawyer with enough integrity to be 
streight about it up front.  Several other lawyers have since confirmed 
his prognosis.

The bottom line - for 6 months my children were subjected to repeated 
counts of aggrivated assault with a weapon (leather belts, spoons...).  
The assaults ceased only when I offered to "punish" my ex's husband with 
my belt (I was wearing a big 6 oz. western belt buckle on a studded 
belt).  My ex admitted she had been using a belt too.  I told her that I 
would punish Jerry (her husband) if she used a belt on the kids too.  The 
assaults stopped only when I nearly took the law into my own hands.

> For another example, consider grounding. Under any other circumstances this
> would likely be considered false imprisonment, a felony. Do you support me
> reporting you under the pretense of supporting some childs non-existant right
> with respect to this?

Discipline is a function of "due process".  If the child understands what 
he has done, why it was wrong, and that his choices come with 
consequences that have been spelled out in advance, he can know that he 
is being punished fairly.  Too often, punishment, whether it be 
grounding, whipping, or even tales of terror, designed to torment sleep 
and create nightmeres, is arbitrary, based on the mood, temperment, and 
stress level of the parent.  Often a parent is trying to punish someone 
else (the non-custodial parent...) by punishing the children.

> >Being a child should not hurt, and hitting a child hurts.
> Horseshit. Living hurts. Period. Everything that has ever lived has hurt and
> everything that will ever live will hurt. Children are no exception. If you
> feel that they or any other living thing has a 'right' to never hurt then
> you'll have to take that up with a higher authority.

Yes, being a child hurts.  Being a parent hurts.  Getting divorced hurts. 
Being the child of divorced parents hurts.  Losing a father hurts.  
Giving up house, friends, and posessions to accomodate new constraints on 
lifestyles hurts custodial parents, children, and non-custodial parents.  
Does adding the pain of blaming the child for the failed marriage, or 
taking out frustrations intended for the NCP justify brutality of a CP?
In a two-parent family, the parents offer checks and balances to each 
other.  When one is homicidal, the other is relatively calm and serene.  
In the original extended family, the checks and balances included 
grandparents, aunts, uncles, mothers, and fathers.  To abuse one's 
children was to offend the in-laws as well as one's own ancestors.

> You don't think other forms of discipline hurts? In fact, according to you,
> it hurts worst and for longer! Why should it be more acceptable to cause
> someone psychological pain? Hurt is the active ingredient in discipline
> whether it's grounding or time-outs (preventing someone from doing what they
> want to be doing), spanking, traffic fines, or prison.

I don't think psychological pain is any nobler than physical pain.  The 
difficulty comes in knowing what level of physical pain is effective 
without being abusive.  Any pain given during the pique of a rage, is 
likely to be damaging regardless of the intensity.  At the same time, a 
single finger, tapping a strategic spot can cause enough sensation to get 
a child's attention, without causing a trauma, especially when you have 
promised that you would do that.

Too often, parent's make threats that they cannot carry out.  "If you do 
X I'm going to kill you" means nothing because the threat cannot be 
carried out.  On the other hand, "If you do X, you are going to have to 
watch TV for 15 minutes, and we WON'T TURN IT ON" is a very real threat.
When they got a little older, Leslie would tape religious programming.  
That was Cruel and unusual punishment, but they knew that if they did 
certain specific acts (stealing, hitting another person,...) that they 
would have to watch PTV (Preacher Television) for up to an hour.  
Discipline has been much easier since then. :-)

> -kelvin

	Rex
 

From rballard@cnj.digex.net Tue Nov  8 04:08:12 1994
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Newsgroups: alt.child-support